tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post1881332361306363210..comments2023-08-02T23:04:07.548+08:00Comments on Yawning Bread Sampler: Muddy Singapore swallows China workers, part 2Yawning Bread Samplerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07107097753480790615noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-31023652859598138022009-01-19T04:42:00.000+08:002009-01-19T04:42:00.000+08:00first a short observation: I find authoritarian at...first a short observation: I find authoritarian attitudes in both camps, and the current discussion illustrates that <BR/><BR/>YB's part 4 is out; decide for yourself whether you still believe MOM ordered its officials to "collude" with employers, or it was a case of complacency, not anticipating problems and having the right procedures in place, causing a number of workers to be victimized till the problems blew up<BR/><BR/>about anonymity: do some homework; try clicking on "yuen" and see where it leadsyuenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01662790978561881993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-57690143823577034322009-01-19T01:09:00.000+08:002009-01-19T01:09:00.000+08:00Comments are now closed. I will only make one exce...Comments are now closed. I will only make one exception, if Yuen wishes to make one last reply.Yawning Bread Samplerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07107097753480790615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-51391302271012003282009-01-17T19:25:00.000+08:002009-01-17T19:25:00.000+08:00To Yuen:Saying you don't deserve a freedom is not ...To Yuen:<BR/><BR/>Saying you don't deserve a freedom <BR/>is not denying to you. It is applying the same logic to you as<BR/>you have done to others. Foreign<BR/>workers are denied certain freedoms. I say no excuses - they deserve it. You look for rationalizations. I say the same rationalizations should apply to you too for your freedoms.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-16640667861452026532009-01-17T19:11:00.000+08:002009-01-17T19:11:00.000+08:00To Yuen:And I see you are no longer making an issu...To Yuen:<BR/><BR/>And I see you are no longer making <BR/>an issue about me being anonymous<BR/>and you being bravely un-anonymous by revealing yourself to be "Yuen".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-10496969177892583272009-01-17T19:04:00.000+08:002009-01-17T19:04:00.000+08:00To Yuen:"(in fact, the idea of someone having to "...To Yuen:<BR/><BR/>"(in fact, the idea of someone having to "deserve" his/her freedoms is already authoritarian; I am sure PAP thinks only those who are grateful to the government "deserve" to share the benefits it believes it created, and LKY thinks CSJ does not "deserve" to stand for elections because he is not a good person; freedom means anything not banned by law and everyone has the right to exercise it, without having to do anything to "deserve" it)"<BR/><BR/>It is only authoritarian if you<BR/>enforce it. If you use it as a form<BR/>of condemnation it is a perfectly moral and sometimes obligatory thing to do. Bad attitudes need to <BR/>be condemned. Saying someone doesn't deserve something because he rationalizes why we should accept the situation is both moral and obligatory.<BR/><BR/>How difficult is this to understand: if someone has a freedom - others deserve it too - no excuses. If you work to find excuses, I have a moral right to say you don't deserve that freedom.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-83174159276018298782009-01-17T18:53:00.000+08:002009-01-17T18:53:00.000+08:00To Yuen:I still say you don't deserve the freedoms...To Yuen:<BR/><BR/>I still say you don't deserve <BR/>the freedoms that are denied to others by people whose actions <BR/>you rationalize.<BR/><BR/>Doesn't mean I will work to take them away. It does mean I have a right to criticize your attitude.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-6801011703617855502009-01-17T18:49:00.000+08:002009-01-17T18:49:00.000+08:00To Yuen:"I see you no long want to deny my freedom...To Yuen:<BR/><BR/>"I see you no long want to deny my freedom to speak out on the ground I dont "deserve" freedom"<BR/><BR/>Criticizing you is denying you<BR/>your freedom to speak? <BR/><BR/>Critizing a man for his undeserved<BR/>wealth is taking his money away?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-48920010606520238992009-01-17T18:44:00.000+08:002009-01-17T18:44:00.000+08:00To Yuen:Did you even read the article?Quoted from ...To Yuen:<BR/><BR/>Did you even read the article?<BR/>Quoted from YB. Read the last sentence.<BR/><BR/>"Wanting to press for a resolution of his dispute with his employer, Xue Hanming, a construction worker originally from Jiangsu, China, called the Ministry of Manpower on 3 December 2008. "Ms Foo [Kim Hui] told me to go down to the ministry the next day," he told me.<BR/><BR/>On the 4th, he arrived and asked the reception clerk to inform Ms Foo of his presence. He was asked to sit in the waiting area.<BR/><BR/>After a long while with no sign of Foo, Xue began to wonder if something else was up. Fresh in his mind was the case of a fellow worker, Xue Chengming (no relation), who had been seized by security agents hired by their employer on 2 Dec. More on Xue Chengming's seizure below.<BR/><BR/>Fearing a similar fate, Xue decided to leave. Moments after stepping out, he saw his manager and a couple of security guards enter the Manpower ministry building. It was a near miss.<BR/><BR/>The coincidences scream at you. Who would have alerted the employer that Xue Hanming was in the ministry building? Why did Foo never come down to meet someone with whom she herself had asked to come to the ministry, giving the impression that she was prepared to discuss the matter with the complainant? Are government offices meant to be places for resolving problems in good faith and according to the law, or locations for entrapment?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-26365742668966028022009-01-17T14:13:00.000+08:002009-01-17T14:13:00.000+08:00〉they collude with employers to trap the workers. ...〉they collude with employers to trap the workers. <BR/><BR/>is that what YB said? maybe he would like to clarify<BR/><BR/>I see you no long want to deny my freedom to speak out on the ground I dont "deserve" freedomyuenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01662790978561881993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-24844635585241414022009-01-17T12:22:00.000+08:002009-01-17T12:22:00.000+08:00To Yuen who said:"civil servants, like everyone el...To Yuen who said:<BR/><BR/>"civil servants, like everyone else, have rights and deserve to be treated fairly; when they have not been given proper instructions, they cannot do proper work; "<BR/><BR/>When not given proper instructions<BR/>they collude with employers to trap the workers. That's quite a jump.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-38910591014742841052009-01-15T21:25:00.000+08:002009-01-15T21:25:00.000+08:00civil servants, like everyone else, have rights an...civil servants, like everyone else, have rights and deserve to be treated fairly; when they have not been given proper instructions, they cannot do proper work; <BR/><BR/>anyone that gets unfairly blamed is being "downtrodden", and those who make such unfair blames are not much better than authoritarians who ignore the rights of other people; civil servants also use their real names, so they can be identified and be made to take responsibility for what they say/do<BR/><BR/>(in fact, the idea of someone having to "deserve" his/her freedoms is already authoritarian; I am sure PAP thinks only those who are grateful to the government "deserve" to share the benefits it believes it created, and LKY thinks CSJ does not "deserve" to stand for elections because he is not a good person; freedom means anything not banned by law and everyone has the right to exercise it, without having to do anything to "deserve" it)yuenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01662790978561881993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-17153794317314570842009-01-15T10:29:00.000+08:002009-01-15T10:29:00.000+08:00To Yuen, who said:"so do most singaporeans - they ...To Yuen, who said:<BR/><BR/>"so do most singaporeans - they keep carefully hidden and quiet"<BR/><BR/>How are you not "hidden and quiet"?<BR/><BR/>Unless you call rationalizing the behaviour of these civil servants "speaking up for the downtrodden"!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-23707077836454694722009-01-15T10:23:00.000+08:002009-01-15T10:23:00.000+08:00To Yuen:I say let Yawning Bread have the last word...To Yuen:<BR/><BR/>I say let Yawning Bread have the last word: <BR/><BR/>"We may be afraid to stand with them, but at least for the sake of our own moral integrity if nothing else, we shouldn't disparage or discourage them."<BR/><BR/>Surely you understand this and how it applies to your postings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-32792329282469083202009-01-14T15:56:00.000+08:002009-01-14T15:56:00.000+08:00>superior's orders to trap the workers in M...>superior's orders to trap the workers in MOM? <BR/><BR/>I said MOM was mainly guilty of complacency, i.e., lack of preparation with instructions of how to handle the problem<BR/><BR/>>I deserve the freedoms that I have by not giving excuses to those who deny it to others<BR/><BR/>so do most singaporeans - they keep carefully hidden and quietyuenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01662790978561881993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-78165123419932073512009-01-14T12:43:00.000+08:002009-01-14T12:43:00.000+08:00I am going to moderate future comments here more s...I am going to moderate future comments here more strictly. Things are getting too close to personal. best if we stop commenting any more unless we have something new to say.Yawning Bread Samplerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07107097753480790615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-19244331425938675132009-01-14T10:25:00.000+08:002009-01-14T10:25:00.000+08:00To Yuen who said: "o you think you deserve them? t...To Yuen who said: "o you think you deserve them? tell us what you have done to deserve your freedoms"<BR/><BR/>I deserve the freedoms that I have by not giving excuses to those who deny it to others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-27705998717698570182009-01-14T10:15:00.000+08:002009-01-14T10:15:00.000+08:00To Yuen who said:"YB is not doing this in his capa...To Yuen who said:<BR/><BR/>"YB is not doing this in his capacity as a civil servant; he is doing it as a concerned citizen<BR/><BR/>civil servants have the obligation to follow instructions; where their instructions are inadequate, the fault lies at a higher level"<BR/><BR/>What you said in previous posts contradicted reality. Now you are contradicting yourself. You are now saying AK Tan's colleague was following her superior's orders to trap the workers in MOM? ROTFL.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-76011085908732605362009-01-14T10:09:00.000+08:002009-01-14T10:09:00.000+08:00To Yuen who said:"o you think you deserve them? te...To Yuen who said:<BR/>"o you think you deserve them? tell us what you have done to deserve your freedoms"<BR/><BR/>By not doing what you have done - belittle and discourage the efforts<BR/>of those who fight for them. <BR/><BR/>I congratulate your bravery for using "Yuen" to sign-off - ROTFL.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-85328605980094154522009-01-13T21:06:00.000+08:002009-01-13T21:06:00.000+08:00>what do you think YB is doing?YB is not doing ...>what do you think YB is doing?<BR/><BR/>YB is not doing this in his capacity as a civil servant; he is doing it as a concerned citizen<BR/><BR/>civil servants have the obligation to follow instructions; where their instructions are inadequate, the fault lies at a higher levelyuenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01662790978561881993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-58864350782492750042009-01-13T14:43:00.000+08:002009-01-13T14:43:00.000+08:00>freedoms that you now enjoy but don't dese...>freedoms that you now enjoy but don't deserve.<BR/><BR/>o you think you deserve them? tell us what you have done to deserve your freedoms<BR/><BR/>demanding that others fight for you, while you hide in anonymity, is just so easy; I at least use my real name and stand by what I sayyuenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01662790978561881993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-45369623545774925102009-01-13T10:34:00.000+08:002009-01-13T10:34:00.000+08:00To Yuen who said:"in this real world, lower ranks ...To Yuen who said:<BR/>"in this real world, lower ranks are better off not thinking for themselves and just execute orders; even reporting problems is risky, since you are telling your superiors about their shortcomings; remember what happened to the LTA engineer on the Nicholl Highway project who ended up killing his son before committing suicide - he predicted disaster, and see what it got him<BR/>"<BR/><BR/>So, what do you think YB is doing?<BR/>You are advising him to stop what he is doing and bury his head in the sand?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-89674821992857535222009-01-01T10:53:00.000+08:002009-01-01T10:53:00.000+08:00Yawning Bread has helped the course of justice and...Yawning Bread has helped the course of justice and brought some light into the world with your coverage. Thank you for reporting on this case.Green Stripeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06910206929978364551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-60036652755414089342009-01-01T10:50:00.000+08:002009-01-01T10:50:00.000+08:00I am so ashamed and shocked to read in Yawning Bre...I am so ashamed and shocked to read in Yawning Bread that workers, especially foreign ones can be treated so badly in Singapore. <BR/>My guess is that the MOM is basically aware of the lousy job being done by Ms Foo and AK Tan, the uncivil servant, and is turning a blind eye to their horrible abetment and aid of the oppression and abuse of workers. <BR/><BR/>Yuen: Why are you shielding apathy and turning a blind eye? Or are you a uncivil servant too? I work in government and apathy from one breeds more apathy. Who could not see that the system is terribly heavily weighed towards kicking workers who want fairness out.<BR/><BR/>If you are a worker in singapore, be very angry that your tax dollars don't seem to be doing anything good..Green Stripeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06910206929978364551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-13448191058310564982008-12-24T20:39:00.000+08:002008-12-24T20:39:00.000+08:00Hi YB,Sorry this comment is not related to your po...Hi YB,<BR/><BR/>Sorry this comment is not related to your post. I just noticed that "The Online Citizen" domain has been disabled!!! Wondering why? Appreciate if you could help find out and publish the info for anonymous folks like us to offer help if needed. Thanks! Please delete this non-related post if it clogs up your blog. Thanks.<BR/><BR/>Happy holidays and 2009!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28396254.post-25898898349948190282008-12-18T19:41:00.000+08:002008-12-18T19:41:00.000+08:00To Yuen, who said:"in an ideal world, civil servan...To Yuen, who said:<BR/>"in an ideal world, civil servants would use their own initiative to solve problems not covered by the rulebook, engineers are inventive, people in business are enterprising, gays are not promiscuous, straits are not homophobic, ... most important of all, there is consensus among all the ranks and everyone work together...<BR/><BR/>in this real world, lower ranks are better off not thinking for themselves and just execute orders; even reporting problems is risky, since you are telling your superiors about their shortcomings; remember what happened to the LTA engineer on the Nicholl Highway project who ended up killing his son before committing suicide - he predicted disaster, and see what it got him".<BR/><BR/>What you really deserve is to be<BR/>of African origin in pre-Emancipation USA and have someone saying the same kind of things to you. The world is a better place exactly because there are people who ignore and detest you. A world with freedoms that you now enjoy but don't deserve.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com